Alan Lomax and Ewan MacColl discuss Scots and Jews (part 1)

Note: Recorded at MacColl and Peggy Seeger's flat in London. Attitudes towards students and marriage among Scots and Jews. After the 1939 General Strike Ewan MacColl's father wouldn't allow any medical students in his house, because of scabbing by students. Ewan MacColl tells an anecdote about Wink Clayman, MacColl's Jewish friend from Manchester, the kind of Jew that Michael Gold described in "Jews Without Money," that is, "poorer than we were." Alan Lomax: Among Jews it was an honor to have a scholar in the family. Ewan MacColl: Wink had been Dostoyevky's eternal scholar. Obtained medical degree at age of 35. Alan Lomax: The most desirable husband for a girl was someone who had a bit of land. Alan Lomax and Ewan MacColl discuss the fact that marriage was not common in Scotland. Ewan MacColl: Scots held on to pre-Christian relationships. Couples would pair off and lie together during bonfires. If still together at the end of the year, they would marry. Trial marriage persisted in the face of Puritanism. Discussion of problem of how you stabilize a relationship for child-rearing and passing along of property. Alan Lomax: Who you sleep with is the least important part. Both parties need continuities of relationships and society must have that as well. Ewan MacColl: But the Scots - Alan Lomax concedes that the Scots were the acme of perfection. But among the Jews it is remarkable that a scholar was the most desirable male. Discussion of degree of women's subservience in Jewish society. Alan Lomax: Isaac Bashevis Singer tells a different story, depicts a society that is surprisingly free with a kind of trial marriage. If things don't work out they manage to fix things so that girls are passed on to more stable men. Discussion about the Jews. Alan Lomax says he spent his life working with American Jews and they were the ones who were most interested in what he was trying to do, in distinguishing whether songs were folk songs or something else, for example. Explanation: their literacy derived from a long history as merchants and bankers. Literacy made them able to survive in any kind of society. Every male had to undergo lengthy education no matter what his ultimate occupation in life. Ewan MacColl: They were forced to be bankers through discriminatory regulations. Up to the time of Torquemada and in Muslim lands they excelled in a huge number of crafts, they were the master craftsmen, stone workers, blacksmiths, and equalled the Japanese in ceramics. Alan Lomax: Not that much difference between banking and crafts. Ewan MacColl disagrees: A world of difference. Alan Lomax: Banking is a way of handling people, markets - a big achievement. [Alan Lomax's own father worked as a banker.] The continuity of Jewish culture has been their literacy. Through all these achievements they had their system of learning the Talmud, which gave them a rationale for life and conduct for every interaction. Scots also have a distinctive tradition, committed an awful lot of their folklore to paper, not to same extent. Ewan MacColl: Scots became literate in 1632. Alan Lomax: Here you have a culture that crystallized as a community, forming an urban community that was different than almost anyone else. In a sense, Muslim culture for a time matched that of the Jews and had an equal influence. But this whole business of reasoning out problems, of logical arguments and disputation has given the Jews a spiritual advantage over other people in the city. When Spain lost these people they lost not only craftsmen, they lost philosophy, they lost reason. With the very bad training the Catholic tradition gives you there was nothing to match the kind of intellectual training you get from the Torah or Talmudic schools. It's evident everywhere you encounter it. Ewan MacColl [stupefied]: Well, OK. Shall we clear up the things? Alan Lomax: Let me do it. Ewan MacColl: No, you don't know where they go. Alan Lomax: You must play us some of your songs, Peggy. Ewan, you mustn't get mad at me when we disagree. Ewan MacColl: I'm not - Alan Lomax: Now, for Christs' sake, we can't agree about everything. Cut it out! Peggy Seeger: Does your mind never rest, Alan? [laughter] Alan Lomax: I just spend most of my time asleep, these days, but I consider that I am in an atmosphere of enormous intellectual intensity here with you and Ewan. [Peggy Seeger: ?] Let me say, that's a good thing for me. My particular set of ideas are perfectly banal. I'm just a visitor from a different intellectual environment, that's all. Different from what you're used to, maybe. The thing that I decided that I could do with my life was to evoke and learn the most interesting thing in others, because I didn't have anything of my own. I decided that when I was sixteen. For instance, since I met Crack Hoss, a prisoner, an utterly fantastic human being. My father had to go off somewhere, so I stayed with him and his friend.